Ep 149: Being the Willy Wonka of Malaysia & the Munchy's Factory | Rodney Wong (CEO, Munchy's)
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Rodney Wong: So I told some of my friends, I'm leaving Petronas and joining Munchies. And the first question is, C L R? You know? You know, this is Petronas and Munchies. You know, I work in Coca Cola, I work in Unilever, Petronas. And I've been successful in this company, but I can never pin the success on myself alone.

It's also time for me to prove that I really have learned a lot and know how to run a company. But it's challenging. And one of the things that I found out, everything go back to the founder. Even if you want to buy a vacuum cleaner, RM 300, you go to the founder. So I told the founder, I said, This is not going to work.

Do you even want to make this decision?

Ling Yah: Hey STIMIES!

Welcome to another episode of the So This My Why podcast. I'm your host and producer, Ling Yah. And today's guest is Rodney Wong.

Now, Rodney is the CEO of _*You Are Munchies*_, which is Malaysia's number one biscuits and snacks brand. And he's here to basically share his many, many varied career paths from working at tobacco company to working at Coca Cola to Petronas and now in a biscuit confectionary empire.

We talked a lot about not just the careers, but also the insights of what it's like to be a leader.

How do you pay it forward? Why does he pay it forward? And his very personal interest in childhood cancer. I learned a lot about what it's like to be a leader who cares about other people more than himself. And I'm sure that you will learn a lot here too.

So are you ready?

Let's go.

Hi, Ronnie. Thank you so much for joining me today on the So This My Why podcast.

I love to start all my interviews by going to the beginning. And I realized that we're both from Kuching.

Rodney Wong: Are you from Kuching?

Ling Yah: I'm from Kuching. I grew up there, yeah.

Rodney Wong: I didn't know you were from Kuching.

Ling Yah: Yeah, Kuchingite. Grew up there.

Rodney Wong: A pleasant surprise, you know.

Ling Yah: Parents from Sibu. That's all I knew growing up.

Rodney Wong: So you are Hockchiew?

Ling Yah: Foochow.

Rodney Wong: Foochow. Here they call it hockchiew right?

Ling Yah: They say foochow as well. I've heard foochow is just different in the way we speak. I wonder what your experience was like growing up in Kuching, in quite a large family as well.

Rodney Wong: Yeah, we have six siblings, and I must say, it's a very different world today, compared to when I was growing up.

Ling Yah: Even now, when I go back to Kuching, it's totally different.

Rodney Wong: Yes. When I say a very different world, I'm not referring to Kuching today. I'm referring to probably what my children went through and what the younger generation is going through.

I don't know what kind of experience they're picking up in the bedroom and they don't come out, you know. When I was young, it's really spending a lot of time outdoor. There are less cars, we used to walk around, we went fishing in the monsoon drain.

Ling Yah: Yeah, my parents would swim in the big drain.

Rodney Wong: Oh, your parents. So, so it's really a lazy fare for us. We get to do a lot of things. We climb trees. we, we pick fruits. for It's probably the best time of my life. It's really carefree and you don't really think about a lot of things, right?

Growing up in Kuching also, you're very rooted in part of a large family. I was staying in Kuching for many years until maybe 12, 13 years ago, I decided to move up to KL. So it is still a place that I call home probably the place that I want to go back when I retire.

Ling Yah: Why did you feel, given the surrounding you were growing up in, that you wanted to be an archaeologist when you were young?

Rodney Wong: Yeah, I think the past really fascinated me, on the religion side.

Buddhism is like 5,000 yearsago, somebody like Gautama are able to come up with the concept of religion and through that concept he has built such a huge following.

Rodney Wong: And even until today, it is self driven, right? Because religion never really die. If you look at the four or five great religions of the world. All of them are still surviving. All of them are still recruiting more and more people, right? So I'm fascinated by how do they do it? Because really, it's also about leadership, right?

How do you get people to follow you?

If that can be then translated into you know business leadership, wouldn't that , be wonderful, right? Because all leaders wanted to build a strong cohesive, loyal team of people that is going to drive the business. in today's world you're lucky to have people who stay beyond two years or three years.

So that fascinates me and also the fact that we watch movies. Archaeologists are really sexy people who get to dig and then discover things.

The reality was when I was in lower six I I went and talked to my father. All my classmates are applying for college and I'm applying for a few colleges in Australia. Then my father told me he couldn't afford to send me, because at that time my elder brother was studying.

So, that dream gets shattered quite quickly.

Ling Yah: You must have been very disappointed.

Rodney Wong: Well, in a way, yes, because all my peers , they're going off to college. Everybody's so excited, right? Probably one of the best thing that happened to me is that I didn't get to go, go to college, right?

So I quit Form 6. I started working, I started working at night when I was 19. So by the time a lot of my friends came back, I already had built a number of years of experience.

Ling Yah: So you didn't even consider doing local university first?

Rodney Wong: Well, I couldn't qualify, number one. Because most of the university is in Peninsular Malaysia at that time, and most of them are Malay educated.

I was probably the second last batch of English Eds in East Malaysia because I think we are like 10 years behind. So it never crossed my mind to apply for local uni because it's been conducted in Basar Malaysia and I was English Ed. We have only one subject of Bahasa Malaysia.

The reason why I say it's probably the best thing that happened to me is because while my peers you know, busy learning the theoretical part of whatever subject, I was already in the practical side. I have the opportunities to pick up experiences.

Ling Yah: Are you clear what exactly those experiences were or is it more whatever job comes my way?

Rodney Wong: Well, Well, I was also lucky I started as a sales rep with Rockmans. Rockmans of Palma. It's, it's a cigarette company. Since then it's been acquired by BAT. When you work in a large multinational and they were the largest cigarette company in Malaysia at that time. You learn a lot of structured way of working, right?

How do you do distribution? How do you do display? How do you build grants through samplings and things like this. Although I was very low level, you get exposed to that corporate kind of environment and you start learning. And of course, after a couple of years I joined as a trainee rep, but after seven years, I'm still a junior rep.

I was told during the time corporation placed a lot of emphasis on certificate. And And it's difficult to promote somebody without at least a basic degree. So, I then took correspondence study and work my way to MBA.

Ling Yah: And you already had your daughter then?

Rodney Wong: Yeah, yeah. The reason why I said that it could probably be the best thing that happened to me because when I was taking the MBA, I actually attended a weekend tuition with matured students. So I didn't get to rub shoulders with people who are really successful already running the business.

I actually have one of the, course mat. who is running a listed company. They are not interested to take the exam, they just want to learn. So for me , I then have two perspectives. The practical side of things where I was already in, and now I'm learning the theoretical side.

It's easy for me to connect the dots. That is a very important experience for me because then I realize why corporations are doing the things that they're doing.

Ling Yah: Was that the point where you decided maybe it's time to find another job?

Rodney Wong: Yeah, because having that education then it was tough because my children was very young and we live in a house together with my parents and my brothers. And me and my wife and two kids, we, we share one room, so I couldn't study at home.

I have to go to the public library most of the weekends. And when I travel for work, instead of going out, you know, happy hour with friends associates I have to take a quick meal, go back to the hotel and study. But that taught me a lot of self discipline.

I guess one of the most important lesson for me is you need to take charge of your own development, right? I think today when I speak to some of my colleagues the question is what's the company going to do to develop me, to train me.

Today's world people expect. things from, from the corporation that we're working in. For me at that time is what am I going to do for myself? I don't want to place my future in the hands of some company that I'm working in.

You know, I want to shape my own future. I want to develop myself so that I'm in the better position to do the things that I want to do. That's why after the correspondence studies I get into a better job. right?

I was a sales rep, then I got a job with a company called Eberson Laboratories as a sales supervisor in charge of the whole East Malaysia.

And this huge difference, right? I was a sales rep and from there, you suddenly get a job taking care of the whole East Malaysia. You have to make a lot of management decisions.

We sell diagnostic products to the laboratories. Government laboratories private laboratories.

It's a good experience for me because I started to learn management. I started to learn how to manage things manage people as well. In the past, I don't really have people reporting to me, and now I have people reporting to me.

Because you are practically running that small little region by yourself, I learned about strategy as well. How do I craft a strategy for the next year? How do I craft a business plan? And also starting to look at P& L because you are a profit center.

And I must say today my philosophy is a little bit different. I know in the old days, people place a lot of emphasis on certification, right?

For me, it's about the capability of the people. I believe that everything can be learned, you know, if you get the right person in with the right behavior.

For example, somebody committed, somebody hardworking, some fast learner.

Is there any importance in certification? I think some but that's not a deal breaker. Employee who's been doing well, you know, I, I don't even look at what kind of qualification they have.

I look at the track record. I look at their behaviors. I look at their competency and the potential of the person to go to the next level, right?

But in my days, it's tough. If you don't have a certain kind of certificate, you can't even get a job interview. So I was lucky in some sense, I'm able to move on.

But also the hard work that I put in, over the weekends, quite a number of years of sacrificing a lot of family time. I guess end of the day, it also benefited the family. If you are able to make a bit more the family will benefit.

Like my two children, they went on to their studies, they don't have to worry about anything. Everything is provided for, unlike my time.

Ling Yah: What would you say was your driving factor back then? Because it's easy, especially if you're in a small town, just be content with something that's small and secure, but that clearly isn't the case for you. You were always looking to do something more and more and more.

Rodney Wong: Well, the driving factor when I was here is to be successful like everybody else, right?

Ling Yah: What did that success look like?

Rodney Wong: Well, because I'm in a corporate company, success is climbing the corporate ladder. Yeah. You know. But when I was in East Malaysia, that was the highest job I ever get, . My last job was the head of East Malaysia.

There are a lot of time when the company wanted to move me over to Peninsular. I didn't really wanted to move because, life is so good in Kuching, right? And I get to travel in East Malaysia. It's comfortable. Everything is accessible. All your friends are there and people go back at five, you know, here people go back at seven and then they jam another hour. By the time they get back, it will be very late.

So the quality of life is very different. The cost for living also was much, much cheaper in Kuching. So what drive me at that time is of course climbing the corporate ladder and also providing for the family, you know good quality of life until something happened. My son was sick, and it changes perspective.

Before that, I used to travel a lot. Then I'll go to the office over the weekends. I never really take a long leave. So when Keith was sick, I, I realized that that's not so important.

That's when I felt that my life has changed. I start focusing on things that are important to me. Not that work is unimportant. You learn how to manage your time.

Ling Yah: How do you manage it? I think that's the thing that people always struggle with, right?

Rodney Wong: For me, it's about striking the balance, right?

It's spending quality time. Making sure that you put aside time to spend together.

Ling Yah: Do you have a hard rule after 10 p. m. I never check?

Rodney Wong: I, I have a hard rule that after I leave the office, I don't think about work.

For me and my wife, Helen we have this Wednesday night out so it's our night. My company also know that on Wednesday, please don't block my calendar.

Maybe today, almost every night is just two of us because the children is not around.

But the point is making a conscious effort to spend time together. I also make sure that I spend time together with my kids.

Apart from , of URMunchy's the Biscuit and Snack Company in Malaysia, I'm also the president of Childhood Cancer Malaysia, and Childhood Cancer International, which I

Ling Yah: just promoted,

Rodney Wong: yeah, well, yeah, I was installed year in October. I have been volunteering for Childhood Cancer for the past 22 years with Sarawak Children's Cancer Society. I'm still the current president .

We also set up a childhood cancer Malaysia umbrella organization for the rest of the local organization appointed as a honorary advisor.

I'm also very passionate that our sustainability ESG. Last year, I also appointed as the honorary advisor for the ESG association of Malaysia.

And last but not least, I have a passion for what I call paying it forward. Yeah.

I guess who I am today has a lot to do with my past managers, my past mentors, my past leaders.

Ling Yah: Who is one of those people?

I think there was one person I read, being Michael Lee.

Rodney Wong: Yes, yes, I'll tell you that story. Who I am today is also because of all these benefits that I've gotten, and I think it's my turn to now share with the young leaders that's why I also volunteer with a Endeavor where I was a mentor.

Ling Yah: I interviewed Adlin.

Rodney Wong: Oh, you interviewed Adlin. Yeah, yeah.

Ling Yah: I opened up with a ghost story and he went, Oh, how do you know about this?

Rodney Wong: Those are really good stuff that they're doing over there. Pairing experienced CEOs, startup, you know, helping them to scale.

Ling Yah: The selection panel is very interesting.

Rodney Wong: Yes, yes. And I enjoy that a lot. a lot of time is not only you sharing. You know, doing start up, they do things very, very different. The approach strategy very different. They are really fearless.

They take risk and they just go with it. A larger corporation will never do that. Because for us, it's calculated risk, running the ROI. For start up, the DNA is really different for us. For me, there is also personal learning and I learned a lot.

Ling Yah: What were some of the major learnings you took away from this?

Rodney Wong: Well, the major learning is you can grow without any resource. You just need to know where to get the funding. You just respond.

Ling Yah: But only if you can bootstrap first.

Rodney Wong: Of course. Of course. Right. , one of the major learning that I thought is the way they are able to build the culture of multitasking for older people.

Today, if you are working for a startup, your work will probably cut across more function, you know. And you learn very fast. I remember my, when my children were working at start up, they're working into the night.

To them, working into 12, 1 a. m. is normal. They don't complain so much. But if you go to a multinational or to a large corporation, people are nince to five. After work, that's my time.

Ling Yah: When it's 5:55, you're on by the

Rodney Wong: Yeah, yeah.

So, so different. Yeah. How can you build the culture. It's usually the leadership. How he work and then translated into the culture.

Ling Yah: So what is about the personality? What do they do that other people listening can also try and do it themselves.

Rodney Wong: Well, I still run a startup, so I wouldn't know, right? Mere observation.

A clear path for everybody and say this is where the companies go, and this is how we are going. And because they are very small group, very closely knitted opinion are taken into consideration.

When you have a larger organization, it's different, right?

So for example, the organization I work in with 2, 000 people. Just to cascade a message is very difficult. You can't send an email and expect everybody to know what you're trying to say, right? So, we have to use multiple touch points to reach people.

I just attended the talk about the gen Z. And I was told that. gen Z has a higher preference to work for startup than a large corporation because they don't like to be in a straitjacket.

They don't want to just do one thing, you know, they want to do many, many different things and they want to move very fast.

Ling Yah: And they want purpose as well.

Rodney Wong: Yes, yes . genZ is a very interesting generation because if you ask me, I think they are the most informed generation. Everything is in their fingertips. You want to know everything is Google, you can get it, right? And also that make them very impatient.

So when they work in the role once they know what they are doing, once they know how to do it, they want to move on. And large corporation can't do that, I was told that CNC think differently.

Once they know what they're doing, once they know how to do it, I'm finished with that. . You know, for us, a role is fixed until you do well, after two, three years, we promote you. But I want to go on to the next one.

Ling Yah: So how do you think about evolving the company to keep up?

Rodney Wong: This is very interesting. For us to be able to have evolution in the business, we need to understand, we need to know the inside.

Tomorrow I will have a brainstorming session with all the gen Z in the company. It's about asking them what, what is important to you. What are the ideas that you have for the business and how do you see the business going to the future and what would you like to see and then, and then how can then the company then reinvent themselves, so that we can cater to the needs of the Gen Z.

So it's always about insight, then action, that follow.

Ling Yah: I don't know if you've heard of what Duolingo is doing on TikTok. Duolingo is a language app.

Rodney Wong: Yeah, I know that.

Ling Yah: And so a couple of years ago, they hired this very, very young girl, Zaria. She basically was given charge of TikTok.

She said she walked into the office and she saw this giant bird, green suit, human suit, just lying there. She thought, oh, very funny. Just lying there. She took charge of that. And the TikTok channel exploded to millions and millions of followers. And so it's a huge, huge thing right now. And it's all because they said, you know, Gen Z will just trust you to come up with your crazy, wacky ideas and just see where it goes.

Rodney Wong: It's really interesting because when I was listening to the talk, that's exactly what the presenter was saying. He says Gen Z, like I said, probably the most informed generations. And they're also really, really smart because of the information that's in the fingertips. So they know a lot of things.

So you want to do something different. You want to to launch a project that is really going beyond what you are doing. Get them together, put them in the team and they will do it for you. And that's what I'm thinking about, you know. I think we are living in very interesting time, right? AI, you know.

I have to make a speech for the Child Cancer International Conference the Latin America conference in Panama earlier. I, I didn't attend. So they asked me to make a video speech and send over. So I just went into ChatGPT and just type, and that's how the speech came out. Okay, speech came out.

And then I converted part of it into Spanish. Yeah, because it's Latin America, it's Spanish speaking. So, so then you read a couple of sentences in Spanish, and everything come out. In the past it will take me hours to write the speech, and also to research the data that I need to put in.

Today, it's very different you don't know what is original. Or what has been gotten out from Chat GBT, right? I guess that's the kind of world that we're living in. Yeah. And, and I think the important thing is for me to embrace this.

I was speaking to some on how can we harness AI to help us to make better decision. in any business. For our kind of business, one of the area that we are always very watchful about is what we call promotional spending. You have to spend on promotion, giving discount, giving different kind of promotion so that you can get a lift for your brand.

But measuring the efficiency of the promotion is really, really difficult. You have to crunch a lot of data. A lot of time you may not even be right. I'm sure there are AI program out there that can do it better than human being, right? so this is an example of one area that you can harness the power of AI.

So I'm super excited on this future. If you are able to do that, then it will release a lot of resources for you to focus on . And the future is not about AI taking over people. It's about reinventing the rules and evolving as an organization.

How do you use things? It's just like automation. Many, many years ago, there was no automation. In the past, I don't know, somebody have to bake, in the oven.

Now, now it's really different. We produce like billions of biscuits. And you can't possibly do it manually, you know, it has to be automated.

Ling Yah: And one of the things that you have to evolve as well is the digital world where everyone is right now.

How do you see that? What do you see is happening right now?

Rodney Wong: Well, this is really interesting because I was just in Shanghai earlier this month. And I'm fascinated with what's happening in China. I think before the pandemic, China Online business is around 16%.

After the pandemic I was told that the market data is around 50%, and when I speak to my distributor it's 75%.

Malaysia before pandemic is about 1.2% of the business is online. Of course different category, have different number, but I'm just talking in general in FMC food industry, right?

And during the pandemic, it went up to 2 over percent. And after the pandemic, it kind of tapered down. And now I think it's hovering around plus minus 2. 5.

As a business, we also invested in digital marketing. We invested in e commerce. But it's not really getting traction. So, from a long term point of view, we know that online eventually will be a large part of how we shop, And China is the best example.

China is 50%, my distributor is already doing 75%. And there are a lot of very, very exciting things that they're doing. A large part of my distributor sales now come from live streaming.

And in Malaysia there are very less live streaming. And And if you go to the top KOL, for example, in China, like people like Lin Jiaqi, he can sell a million of our product in like 15 minutes.

Yeah. Right.

Ling Yah: And so recently there was news, there's this KOL who sold 18 million worth of product in one hour. Just showing product, five seconds. Yes. Gone, gone.

Rodney Wong: Yes. I am trying to learn more from China because for me, I, I think online China is where a lot of country will eventually move towards, right?

Whether it's live streaming or e commerce. I think the difference between China is they have really a strong ecosystem. It doesn't only encompass the the marketplace player, right? People like Taobao and all this. They also have a very, very strong fulfillment system.

And the cost is really, really low. So in Shanghai, if you order something before 9 a. m., it gets sent to you on the same day. If you order something after 9 a. m., it gets sent to you the next day. And the cost is manageable.

Whereas today in Malaysia, you're still paying a fair bit for fulfillment.

Cost, if you are paying too much and if it's too slow and people don't want it, I can just walk up to the shop or drive out and buy it and I get it right. Yeah. But if, if the delivery promise can be within the same day or even the next day, I think that could be a catalyst to grow the online business.

This is a space that I'm watching a lot. And it's important because if it's the future, then how do you future proof it? For business, it's, it's always that question, do you, until the future arrive, then you invest, or do you now invest ahead of the curve and build a foundation so that when that shift happen, you are there to reap the reward.

That's the difference about startup. Are they very ROI driven? They are very growth driven. For larger corporations, everything that we do, we are looking, does this give us ROI, how many years are we going to have negative ROI Before we see any results? So that is a struggle.

Ling Yah: And that was the big question you faced when you first joined Munchies, right? And it was very much, do you want to expand the market or do you want to improve the bottom line?

Rodney Wong: Yeah. Interestingly, you brought that up. Yeah. Munchies was a really, really successful company by the time I joined in 2014.

They are winning market share. They are growing well. And also because it's still in a very entrepreneurial mode. They are not really watchful on the bottom line.

Ling Yah: This is before CBC.

Rodney Wong: Yes, yes. So that was before CBC together with the founders. when I joined companies, I, I advise people this.

Don't be too fast to make changes, because there's nothing wrong with the business. So I spent a lot of time observing the business and after three months, I realized that the biggest challenge is financial discipline.

They are having super good top line growth, but the bottom line is just not coming in because there are a lot of leakages. They don't have strong principle in the way they invest, so that's when I launched the path to profitable growth and of course it's, It's at the back of a very bad year in 2013, right?

In six months. I joined the company, we grew 150% on ebit. 2015 is the first full year, and I grew another 150% on ebit.

Ling Yah: It's the best performing years.

Rodney Wong: Yeah. And that was the best year in the history of Munchies, and we continue to grow that.

Later on it become attractive and, you know, CBC took over.

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I wonder what are the challenges of working with a company that's been started by founders. Because essentially that is their baby and they've put everything into it and suddenly someone else is coming in telling them what to do.

Rodney Wong: It's really a good question. I was in Petronas at that time. I was the, the general manager for the Malaysian lubricant business and we're doing well at that time. So I told some of my friends, , I'm leaving Petronas and joining Munchies.

And the first question is, 'siow', you know? You know, this is Petronas, and Munchies is is still a successful biscuit company, but in terms of size is so much smaller.

You know, I work in Coca Cola, I work in Unilever, Petronas, and I have been successful in this company, but I can never pin the success on myself alone.

Because we always have regional people supporting us, with global teams supporting us . So the compelling reason for me to join Munchies is if I work in a entrepreneurial kind of company, I have nobody else to lean on.

The bug stops with me because I lead the company, right? And also, It's also time for me to prove that I really have learned a lot. and I know how to run a company. But it's challenging because in the corporate company, it's very clear. You have your level authority or the schedule authority. Everybody has their approval metrics and all these things.

And one of the things that I found out everything go back to the founder. Even if you want to buy a vacuum cleaner, 300 ringgit, you go to the foundr. So I told the founder, this is not going to work, . Because, number one do you even want to make this decision?

That's when we created the level Authority and we started to move into a more professional organized organization. Clear authority, clear decision making.

But does the need to be informed? Yes, A lot of key decision, he need to be informed, right? After a couple of years the management team are really running the business on behalf of the the founder.

I remember my chairman come in our corporate office, maybe twice a year. And my boss, the MD at that time he came to the office probably once a week, you know, sometimes once every two weeks, you know. So by and large the business is run by professionals.

And that helped a lot because after they sold the business, the business continue to be able to run. If they have not make that transition, it will have been difficult. And possibly the, investment arm may not even invest, right? Because most PE, they wouldn't buy a company to run, they buy a company to scale.

Ling Yah: Yeah. They look at management.

Rodney Wong: Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Ling Yah: I wonder. Speaking of CVC, what was it like working with PFM as opposed to a founder team?

It must have been very different.

Rodney Wong: Well, I'll share with you my first instinct. When the founder told me that, hey, you know, they've decided to sell the company to CVC Right in my first moment, I said, oh, this is going to be a nightmare because they're private equity, right?

Yeah. They just want to cut costs and improve profit. And then after holding period, they'll sell it out.

CBC still have a DNA of PE investing. But they are also very particular that let's reduce wastages. Whatever we, we, we said, let's invest into the business and make the brand grow stronger and of course they also come in with a lot of expertise.

Their financial are super good. They really know how to sweat the P& L and, and looking at different way to save costs, different way to improve our cash position. You know. honestly, I enjoy working with them a lot.

It's a different lens of how you look at business, right? When I'm in sales, I focus a lot on generating the sales and asking for more promotional funding so that I can generate the sales. When I'm in general management, it has become very different.

I look at the overall company profitability, and it's not only top line. You look at the cost structure. How can you have a leaner organization? How can you have more saving? How can you have more efficiency? And that will then drop into the bottom line. so it's different perspective.

I just recall a conversation that I have with the Munchies founders. One day we were chatting and I said, you know, after a few years, I've learned a lot from you. And he was surprised.

He said, how can you learn from me because you are this corporate guy who get all this multinational? I said, but entrepreneur, you guys do things very differently.

One of the most important thing that I learned when I was with the founder of Munchies is how they treat the people and they treat the people really well. Remember the year that I said they didn't do so well in 2013? That's the year they sold a piece of land in Glen Murray to pay bonus for their employees.

I then can understand why employees even today they're in the company for. 30 years, 25 years. And they're super hardworking. They're committed to whatever that they do.

Rodney Wong: Sometime year end, when our orders went a bit skyrocketed the factory working nonstop for two months November, December without any break. And they're happy to do that.

I guess the lesson learned is if you treat your people well the people will treat you well. How does an employee treat you well? By responding with hard work, with dedication.

It's actually a no brainer, right? You know, even friends, you treat your friend well, like for example, Ling Yah, if I treat you well, how will you treat me?

Ling Yah: Of course, reciprocate.

Rodney Wong: Exactly. right? Yeah. So, it's not really something that you can learn in multinational.

Ling Yah: Yeah.

I wonder, and people probably sense it from what you've been sharing so far, your career is so full varied.

You started in tobacco. And you got a Coca Cola as well, but you're also in Petronas. Now you're in the Biscuits. Oh, and you also said that you're very intentional about what you're doing with your work, where you want to grow, what that career looks like for you.

I wonder how were you thinking about your career? Just in terms of progression, where were you going next? Because they are so different.

Rodney Wong: I'm going to retire next. For me, it's not trying to achieve the short term goal. It's about having the vision and to grow the business. It's all about growth.

I try not to look at what's been budgeted for. People need to understand that today our company is close to maybe 800 million. We have a vision to hit 1 billion in 26. And why is this so important? It's not because we want to deliver the result to the shareholder.

But if you look at the P&L, if your top line is eight hundred million, and if you are spending 10% on your people costs, it's 80 million. But if you go up to 1 billion, then you have a hundred million to spend. Again, from the philosophy of treating your people well, giving them better benefits making their common brand more competitive you then have the allowance to do more.

Also at the same time, you look at your marketing expense. A certain ratio also apply, right? Then you have more resources to build your brand. And that will make you even more competitive. That's why growing is so important. It's not so much as, oh, I need to achieve the budget.

If you're able to grow, you can continue to use the profit that's generated to then invest in the business and the business then can continue to grow and sustain.

Ling Yah: In terms of personal growth, when you think of career, what was in your mind as you were thinking about next steps? Because I think that's one of the things that people always struggle with.

Oh, I don't think I want to be in this position. I don't know where to go. How do I pivot? What's my next step? Should I stay here or not? How did you think about it?

Rodney Wong: Well this is a really good question. Is there a very intentional, clear path? Yeah. Honestly, I don't think so. People like Masashita who have 50 years, 100 years of tradition Well, these are the super genius of the world,

This question has been asked from me when I joined Munchies. I have only two role. One I'm a resource provider. I look at different part of the business making sure that they're provided with the resource, whether it's people, whether it's funding. Whether it is technology or whatever so that they can do their work better .

The other role is growth because I believe that if you grow your people, then inevitably business will grow. One of my first decision in, in Munchies at that time is to increase the training budget by 300%.

The founder came to me and said, okay, I don't know what you're doing. You increasing it by 300%. So I explained to him and, and I use myself as an example.

I'm not born this way. I don't know the things that I know. It's because people invested with me, people company trained me. That's where I am today. That's why I can do the things that I do. And I believe if I do the same thing with the employees, then they will be able to deliver better results, you know.

When we started investing, capability improve, skill set improve, and of course business follow suit, right?

Ling Yah: Some of the people who invested in you included Michael Lee.

And you said you had a story for me.

Rodney Wong: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael was my sales director when I was in Unilever. Super nice guy,. Soft spoken. Sales director are usually those very loud, bombastic people. He's really the opposite. I learned from him the way he make decision, the way he think through it.

You know, multinationals, what happened is at the beginning of the year, you close your business result, and then you have a one to one with your boss, and that's where they tell you about your increment, your bonus.

So a year where I didn't achieve my target as a sales guy, and you're also scared to face the boss. Unilever pay quite a good, generous bonus if the business do well.

So I don't expect anything really, you know, I just expect to get in and out alive. after a short chat, Michael gave me the envelope. He said, Rodney, why don't you open and have a look, which is kind of a tradition. So I open it up, and I look at him and I say, Hey Michael, I don't understand. He said, What do you mean?

I said, I didn't do well. I'm still getting, a very good bonus like when I achieve a target. And he said to me, it's etched permanently in my head, right? He said, A bad year doesn't make you a bad manager. You know, you have a track record.

I guess the most important lesson to me is when you come to a crossroads, there are really two different path of decision that you can take. do you say something that's going to destroy the confidence of somebody? Or do you uplift that? I find that really, really profound because the effect of that conversation spurred me to work so much more harder.

And the thing that guided me was I do not want to fail this guy. Imagine if we are able to do this for the organization.

Rodney Wong: That's why I'm fascinated with religion. Nobody want to fail God or Jesus Christ or Buddha, right? And the lesson learned here is, do you see the cloud or do you see the silver lining?

In that instance, Michael saw the silver lining. He could have seen the cloud, so one of my guiding principle in decision that I make is I always try to see the silver lining. I'll give you an example.

A couple of years ago, marketing had brought the newly joined a brand manager, maybe two months, three months in, and said that I think you have to talk to Rodney about this.

I already heard in the grapevine that she made a mistake and cost the business 50, 000 ringgit, right? So then I asked her, I said, so do you want to explain this? She explained, she didn't know the system so well. She made an error, you know, overspent by 50, 000. Then I said what's the learning you take from this?

He said, you know, these are the things that I know how to do, blah, blah, blah. I said, okay, and don't worry, I'll just write it off. And thank you so much for taking the time to share with me. I, I'm very excited with your learning, and I hope that you can progress from there. And don't worry about this, you know, it's a mistake. It doesn't define you.

And when I went back, I felt very good, right? And marketing director later on in the meeting came over and thanked me for that, because they were expecting me to be, having an aggressive conversation, and they were a bit concerned. , I told my marketing head, I said, nothing is going to change, right?

Doesn't change the fact anymore. Right. The thing is a done deal. Of course I can berate her, I can tell her off, you know, but it doesn't change the fact that we already lost that 50K. It's not going to bring back the 50K. The more important thing is for me to rebuild the confidence so that she don't go and lose another 50K. Or probably going to help us to make 50K, right?

So So that's the kind of leader that I want to be and that's the kind of direction I want to shape my life. Why can't we see the , goodness of people? I mean, if you have a choice to do something good for people. Why do you want to take the path of those not uplifting? So maybe a point to ponder, right?

Ling Yah: It's almost like seeing the glass half full. Is that something that you've always been able to see world with?

Or would you say what you experienced earlier with your family member that really also shaped the way that you see the world?

Rodney Wong: I, I think the pivotal period is when my son was not feeling well. Mm-Hmm. And it forces me to look at things differently. And there's also a time that I became a Buddhist and in my Buddhist societies is called Soka Gakkai. It is a Japanese Buddhism.

And one of their tenet is the pursuit of happiness in this lifetime. So this really strikes me. In Buddhism, they believe in karma, and people are talking about, you have done good things, that's why today you are born rich and beautiful.

But that really has no meaning to me, right? I don't know what happened in the past. And I also don't know what is going to happen in the future, . I find that concept a bit far fetched.

But nonetheless, when they shared with me a tenet or principle or whatever, that the aim of a Buddhist is to pursue absolute happiness in this lifetime.

And that makes sense to me. I can do things that make me happy. And over time I realized that what makes me happy is not about myself. My family members are happy. I am very happy. If my colleagues and my employees are happy, I am happy. If my friends are happy, I'm happy. You know, because happiness is not about one person.

It cannot be, you're my friend and you suffer, I, I, I wouldn't be happy, right? So that's why I'm trying to live my life to make people around me happy.

And over, over the last couple of years, it give me a very high sense of understanding that my happiness is really from the people around me.

, it's very simple, but yet a very powerful philosophy and that drive me, and that's why I volunteer for causes that I believe in and they help to shape my whole life.

Ling Yah: And just before we wrap up, because I'm aware we have a short on time, let me flip the question. You talk a lot about giving happiness to people, helping people. For those listening, how can they help you?

Rodney Wong: Well, this is a really good question. It's not about helping me. Well, I've causes, you know I'm the current president of Childhood Cancer International and just want to spend a couple of minutes on this.

couple of years ago some of the key stakeholder Childhood Cancer International is one CCI W. H. O., the Society of Pediatric Oncologists International, St. Jude, and, and, and a number of cases that came to the realization that they need to do something to uplift the survival rate of children with cancer, because there's a huge disparity between the, lower and middle income countries, which only have a survival rate of 20 to 30 percent, and then high income country above 80 percent.

And the science is that you can actually treat and get a survival rate of around 80%. But it's not happening in the low and middle income country. And because of a lot of reason, right?

Collectively we came up with the Global Initiative for Child Cancer, GICC. And that aim is to raise the average survival rate from 40 percent to 60%.

And if you do that, by 2030 we will save one million kids lives, you know. And that is what drives CCI, where I'm currently the president.

And how can people help me? Not really me. I mean, if this is a cause that you believe in, you feel that you can do something, please volunteer. Donation is good because you need resources to be able to do things, right?

But, Just reach out to me, what you want to do, what you can do. Maybe it's as simple as just a small donation to the organization, right? When I joined the board in 2019, the whole board is volunteer.

And we have half employee. I mean, the guy work like. two days, three days a week because we could not afford to pay for a full time employee and it's based in Amsterdam, we have so little resources. Our budget is 120, 000 a year euro. You know, for a global organization, it's nothing.

I knew in order for the organization to be able increase the impact and its value to the community, two things must happen.

One, there must be a sustainable professional team full time to drive all the programs around.

The second thing is we must bring in funds. Because without funds, you can't do anything.

So I'm very happy to share that this year our budget is 800, 000 euro. We have started to give grants out for home away from home for organization who don't have halfway house for the patients to stay.

We started number of program to build the capability of all the member organizations throughout the world because we are in 90 countries with about 100 member organizations. And there is a disparity in the capability of different organizations. So we're trying to raise that. Because if we raise that, then they can help the child community more. And that will then increase the survival rate, right?

so the aim is really raising fund so that we can implement the programs that is, that is impactful to the community. Making sure that we have a team of people to deliver that program. Because part timers like, for example, I'm a full time CEO.

But I don't mind sacrificing my leisure to do this because I believe there's a good cause and, and it's really a big goal, the GICC goal that we are trying to achieve. If we achieve that, there will be one more million children who's not going to die. So that does give the organization purpose, you know, and that's what we're trying to drive it towards.

Again, if anybody is interested, if you want to volunteer, just let me know. I think you can reach me through LingYah.

Ling Yah: Oh Rodney, thank you so much for your time.

I love to end with the same five questions, and the first is this. Do you feel like you have found your

why?

Rodney Wong: If you ask me, do I know exactly my why? I anchor on trying to create happiness for people around me. I honestly don't have an answer. If you ask me, creating happiness for people around me. and my volunteer work with childhood cancer are the purpose that really drives me. I'm still trying to find my why.

But as you go through life experience, things will change. But, but at this point, I anchor into these two things.

Ling Yah: What kind of legacy do you want to leave behind?

Rodney Wong: You know, I've pondered on this question for a longest time. Unfortunately, I don't believe in legacy.

I'll give you an example. Today, I'm the CEO of UR Munchies,. The minute I leave, well, there will be a, a celebration, some farewell dinner, you know, maybe some speeches. Three months after that, they'll forget about me, and it will be somebody else at the helm.

I remember reading about, , the porcelain cup is only for you when you are there, and after you leave, the porcelain cup will then pass to somebody else.

So I don't believe in legacy. I believe in doing the best I could possibly can during that moment in time. That's why if you ask me do I believe in karma, I don't believe in karma. But I believe in achieving absolute happiness in this lifetime. Because I don't know what's going to happen next, right?

Someone asked me know, once during your funeral are you worried how many people will come? I said, I can't worry, because I'm dead, right? So why worry about things that you have no control about?

I don't do things because I want to live a legacy. I do things because I believe that it's the right thing to do. For the people, for the business. And that should be what's driving us.

Ling Yah: What do you think are the most important qualities of a successful person?

Rodney Wong: For me, is something that my father have shared with me when I was young. It's humility.

He always tell me that the more successful you are, the richer you become, the more humble you must be.

You see two kinds of people out there. There are successful people who are, so arrogant, and they think the whole world belongs to them. And those are the people that really don't enjoy being around with.

Then there's those people, like, the father of Munchies are really humble people. When you have a meal with them, they will pack the dish and give it to you. And they are the rich and famous people and they treat the people well. So I want to emulate those leaders that I respect and admire.

Learn from those people, learn from those mentors. That's what I do. You look, you learn, you copy and copy with pride is, is okay. Later you will evolve into the leader that you want to become.

Ling Yah: And. where can people go to find out more about what you are doing?

Rodney Wong: I'm in LinkedIn, I'm in Facebook, you can always PM me and you have the perfect connection through Ling Yah.

Go to Ling Yah.

Ling Yah: Sure thing. I will.

And anything else before we end?

Rodney Wong: Thank you for having me.

Ling Yah: Thank you for coming on.

Rodney Wong: I really enjoy this.

Ling Yah: You don't really do this a lot.

Rodney Wong: No, no, I don't do this a lot mainly because I don't think I have a story that interests people.

Ling Yah: I think we need at least two more hours.

Rodney Wong: And Ling Yah's're so persistent, so I said I'll give it a try. And I'm so glad I come along because sometimes we use a platform like this to be able to share your thoughts, and I think it's important. And this is really a story of my life, right, it's very personal to me.

But at the same time if there's anything that you feel that it works for you, why not? It's just like I pick up all the learning from my past leaders.

If I'm able to just pay it forward a little bit, I, I think they will make my day. So thank you. Thank you for making my day.

Ling Yah: It's my pleasure to have you on. Rodney

Rodney Wong: Shake hand?

Ling Yah: Yes.

And that was the end of this episode with Rodney Wong.

If you've enjoyed this episode, please do go and find the show notes at www.sothisismywhy.com. And do like and subscribe to this episode if you haven't done so already.

See you next Sunday.